After our discussion with Tony Winger again today, I wanted to propose another thought experiment for you (although this one I want you to comment on). Keep in mind that this is in the spirit of pushing your thinking, not necessarily making a proposal for action. I would ask you to think carefully and thoughtfully about your response, not just comment with the first thing that comes to mind.
I realize that the following question is phrased in a negative way but - for now - please stick to addressing the question that is asked and not straying into other areas.
Thought Experiment: What is your worst fear about what could happen if we did away with grades?
That kids won't come prepared for class...this is my biggest fear. I know we use: "You'll have a quiz, so you better read" tactics and if we tell them that they don't have to read, I wonder how many would.
ReplyDeleteI know, Karl. You'll say, but then what's the point of reading? Just for the quiz? No, of course it's not.
I guess since I've done the "silly" quizzes in BNW where they still get a score, but they can use partners, I call on names, we take group quizzes, etc. the students tell me that they know they don't have to read and they can pass the quizzes, but when they didn't read, they feel like they miss out on something cool. Once student said that the way we all talked about the book the one day he didn't read, he was so bummed, he read it during his next off hour, which he had never done before.
I really don't know what exactly would happen if grades were eliminated entirely. In response, to Davis' comment, I will admit, I'm guilty of occassionally not reading or something, but it's always caused by the existance of bigger grades in other classes. Prioritizing between classes based on points seems to be a major theme.
ReplyDeleteAnd I definitely agree that people learn faster when they see the purpose in learning. I've found that, oftentimes, many teachers who are popular among students do not use grades in the traditional way, to make students do the material. They are often the ones who make the students want to actively learn, for their own good, not for a silly grade.
I guess my biggest fear is that I wouldn't know what to do. I would have to change the entire mindset of all of my students, their parents, our community, etc. I mean would it really work where I could inspire kids to learn for just the sake of learning or would they come and just sit. I guess I also wonder caould I be that inspirational? Could I motivate them to learn becuase they want to and not because they will receive this reward a.k.a. a grade...That's what scares me!
ReplyDeleteFirst of all...Anne--you already are that inspirational. Although Molly has never had you as a teacher, I imagine that you would fall under her category of teachers who use grades in nontraditional ways.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, I'm fascinated by Molly's point about students prioritizing their homework based on point value. This leads to my fear that in a school with no grades, some students might never, ever do any of their work. How would I teach a class on peer editing if only half of the class had their rough drafts done? As Anne said, I would have to find a different way to motivate. If I focused on pushing my students to get their work done simply to improve their writing, I might have students who wouldn't care about their writing and wouldn't bother to draft. Of course, these students might already be turning out crappy papers right now because they only care about getting enough points to keep their grades acceptable. Perhaps our points right now are merely masking some of our shortcomings. How many times have we said, "Well, she has a B+, so she seems to be just fine," instead of examining how much a student is genuinely improving and working up to his/her potential.
I'm not too fearful about eliminating grades. I used to work in a school in Manhattan where we had no grades, quizzes, or tests. Our students were students who had been kicked out of their original schools for behavioral problems (including drugs and pregnancies). I had about 90% of my students turn in homework every single day, even though many of them had full time jobs. I had two students who initially turned in nothing, but I sat down with them individually and explained my expectations. They started turning in their work the next day. These were not college-bound students, nor did they have much time to do work. I also know I was a terrible student teacher, so I have no idea what motivated them. But I know it wasn't grades.
I think we don't always give our students the credit they deserve. Think about how many of them really are motivated to be successful--perhaps we need to keep on clarifying the link between school and their successful futures (far easier said than done, I know). As proof, I'd like to point out that my student, Molly, who is under no obligation to read our comments and discovered this site on her own, posted a response to Karl before I did. I am both embarrassed for myself and pleased for her, and it makes me want to keep focusing on my students' CURIOSITY as motivation.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI'm not "afraid" of doing away with grades. I would actually prefer to have one-on-one discussions with students about their progress, because right now, grades are the way that I provide feedback. One-on-one discussions would be better because I think it is too easy for a student to shrug off a D ("Who cares?" seems to be the response from many of them). At the other end of the spectrum, I am really proud of students who earn As and Bs when I am really challenging them, and writing "A" or "B" on a paper doesn't really get to that. However, one-on-one discussions are totally out of the question for us, because we teach an average of 150-200 students each. So I guess that my only fear is time. Hmmm . . . that seems to be a constant theme for me.
ReplyDeleteThis makes me think of something else. When I was choosing a college I really considered Colorado College because of its one-course-at-a-time setup. It seemed to me that such a format would really allow students and professors to delve into subject matter. While I think that in theory that might work at the high school level, these days it would be difficult. After all, who would want to take math just during the months of September and January, and then take the math CSAP in March or April? Also, many subjects like math and foreign language require constant daily practice. I wonder if there are any high schools out there that do a modified one-course-at-a-time, in which math and foreign language are daily classes, and language arts, science, social studies, and elective classes are rotated through the students' schedules. I think that our students might buy into classes more if they could really delve into the subject matter. Or not - I don't know.
I think that the biggest issue is changing the mindset of the people around the schools. It seems that the ability of a school to prepare students is tied to the grades that are given to the students. I also would have an issue with the conversations that we would have with parents and students and just the time that those conversations would take. My biggest fear of doing away with grades would be that I am not sure what that looks like and another thing that changes would be something else that I need to figure out.
ReplyDeleteI agree with most of the comments that have already been made. I think that motivation would have to change for every person involved. I also think that it is tough to accurately judge the thinking of every student in the class in every area if you do not have the time to sit down with each one individually. There are some students that let their work do the talking and will not give much feedback verbally. Grading work helps teachers get a grasp of what the student is understanding. This can be accomplished without the grade. I had a student in class yesterday who commented that she learned more the day of the test then she did any other time. She is soley motivated by her grade, and so are coaches and parents. The outlook of the entire community has to change and the work has to be put in by teachers to change that outlook and motivation to learn for the sake of learning.
ReplyDeleteNot to be repetative but I also agree with you have all said above. There are many fears for me if grades were removed. I am not saying that grades shouldn't be removed just that they have been around for forever and without them I think parents, students and teachers wouldn't know what to do. Especially parents. Students would adjust and most teachers would as well.I guess thatmy biggest fear- would be parents. How do we re-educate them?
ReplyDeleteAfter the frustrations I've felt this semester by attempting to change my grades (but actually investing a ton of time and not really changing them at all), the idea of getting rid of grades sounds like a giant relief. To spend less time fussing over points or typing numbers into the computer and more time teaching biology and getting to know kids better sounds awesome. To mirror Brian and Amanda, my fear would be the time it would take to figure out what the new system would look like. And that seems like a whole lot of thinking. Not that it wouldn't be worth it, I just sometimes get tired of thinking...
ReplyDeleteJames-I agree that we have to change the culture, often that culture that appears beyond our control to influence. I also think that with a carefully thought out and implemented plan by people who are deeply committed to the pholosophy and practice and one that breeds success, those outside of our apparent control can be won over, but it can be a very slow process at first.But the great part is that our group is taking the journey together and that is very powerful.We must continue to raise the difficult quetions (aka -Karl)and struggle with the answers. "If we build a better spaceship, they will come."
ReplyDeleteMy biggest fear if grades are not recorded any more would be that students would do absolutely no work. Even taking into account the few students that would increase their knowledge by reading more, I think that most students would start to check out of the learning process. I do not think that trying to tell them that a certain subject is important for their lives will not work in every case. They are constantly looking for "why are we learning this" and I believe that for some, the grade aspect fills in the gaps between relevant subject matter.
ReplyDeleteIf I were to join a school or district that had already done away with grades years before, I would be very excited about the prospect. The biggest thing is dealing with parents and students who expect grades and would practically panic without them. The transition would be the painful part.
ReplyDeleteMy fear would be that kids wouldn't care about learning-they already see grades as a means to an end and like some of you have touched base on, this is a culture that they have been growing up with forever. I think their focuses may shift if that were the case. So many of them are wrapped up in their world's outside of school, that school is now not important. I am also afraid that this sort of drastic "change" would cause an uproar in the traditional system. People like the comfort of the traditional means of things and don't see how disrupting the flow of it with something that may not let their kids shine would be of effective use. I think people would freak out becasue grades do put labels on a kid. I like Rob's rebuttle of the asking the question: are we better off without grades? People fear change, and what's to say that it can't work? I do think that many teachers use grades as a negative force and power over their kids, and from my student responses at the beginning of the year concerning the purpose of grades, most students feel like it brings them down or does not reflect what they know or how they know it. So, I think there is hope!
ReplyDeleteMy greatest fear is a backlash from those who have oversimplified our task already. In a world that seemingly has accepted CSAP and NCLB simplicity in grading issues, I see a political world that would see just this one potential change as a reason to fight all they we seem to be trying to do. Think about a not-so-long-ago school board election. Too much GOOD stuff was trashed because of a few pieces that hadn't built any momentum politcally. I think it is, for now, more important to change the meaning of grades. If that works, then this discussion might not matter.
ReplyDeleteI have mixed feelings about the idea of no grades. One point, as many of you have said, is that students will not come prepared for class. It would be very difficult to inspire the students to want to learn. On the other hand, if there are no grades, it eliminates the fear of failing that so many students have.
ReplyDelete